Conservative politicians John Bolton and Vivek Ramaswamy traded points and counterpoints as they discussed the role of the United States in foreign affairs Thursday evening.

The debate centered around a single resolution: “the U.S. should use its diplomatic and military power around the globe to ensure America’s national security.” Bolton argued in favor, while Ramaswamy argued against.

Bolton, 75, was the elder of the participants and brought more government experience to the table. He has served as the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, an official in both the Justice and State departments, and national security advisor to former President Donald Trump.

Ramaswamy, 39, has no prior government experience. But he ran unsuccessfully for president in 2024, making him the youngest-ever Republican candidate. He also founded the biotech company Roivant Sciences and is a New York Times bestselling author.

The Steamboat Institute, an educational nonprofit that brings speakers from across the political spectrum to college campuses, sponsored the discussion. The Virginia Military Institute hosted Bolton and Ramaswamy at its Center for Leadership and Ethics.

The Steamboat Institute gauged public response to the debate through an online  poll conducted before and after the event. Audience members could select either “agree,” “disagree,” or “undecided” in response to the initial resolution.

Before the debate, 65% of respondents agreed that the U.S. should use diplomatic and military power to ensure its security. 19% disagreed, and 17% were uncertain.

That changed by the time Ramaswamy finished his closing remarks. The last time the results were shown on-screen, only 41% still agreed with the resolution. 55% disagreed, and only 4% remained uncertain.

“It’s not about picking winners and losers of tonight’s debate,” said Jennifer Schubert-Akin, chairman and CEO of the Steamboat Institute. She said the intent was merely to see how opinions shifted.

But those shifts showed a clear trend in favor of Ramaswamy’s “America-first” approach.

The speakers’ opening arguments stressed the importance of history. Looking back to the American Revolution, Bolton reminded the audience that the U.S. has been tied to foreign nations since its founding. He pointed out that 90% of the gunpowder used during the Revolutionary War came from France.

“We have always been part of the wider world,” Bolton said.

Ramaswamy took a more modern approach, highlighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that occurred within the past 25 years. He said that economic costs, loss of life and a migration crisis in Europe all resulted from foreign entanglements and that these sacrifices were not worth it.

“We have failed miserably,” Ramaswamy said.

But the two were also able to find common ground early on. Both said that the growing alliance between China and Russia is the greatest threat the U.S. faces, but they offered different approaches to addressing the issue.

Ramaswamy said that international organizations like the United Nations and the World Trade Organization are to blame for China’s rise, as these institutions promoted trade policies that increased the U.S.’s economic dependence on China. He also said conflicts like those in the Middle East pull resources away from focusing on the Chinese threat.

Bolton said the problem is an economic one. He said the U.S. military is underfunded, especially the Navy.

When asked how the U.S. should involve itself in the growing conflict between Israel and Iran, Bolton said the two nations should cooperate to destroy Iranian nuclear weapons. Ramaswamy declined to give a direct answer, saying “that decision belongs to Israel.”

Neither speaker made any reference to the ongoing Israel-Hamas War.

The discussion then turned to the war between Russia and Ukraine. Ramaswamy said that he believed the U.S. should resolve the war quickly with a resolution that weakens the alliance between Russia and China.

Talking over the moderator, the speakers proceeded to address each other directly.

Ramaswamy asked Bolton what he thought the U.S.’s end goal in Ukraine should be. Bolton said that the nation should strive to help Ukraine regain territorial sovereignty and restore prewar boundaries, including returning the Crimean Peninsula to Ukraine.

“That’s just not going to happen,” Ramaswamy responded. “It’s lunacy.”

The back-and-forth continued for several minutes despite the moderator’s attempts to regain control. Once he did get the conversation back on track, he asked the politicians how the U.S. should respond if China were to invade Taiwan.

Both speakers avoided the question initially. They agreed that if China ever were to invade Taiwan, it would be because of earlier diplomatic failures by the U.S. Eventually, Bolton said that the U.S. should intervene in that instance.

“We have to come to Taiwan’s defense,” he said.

Ramaswamy declined to make a decision either way. “We’d obviously look at the conditions at that time,” he said.

As the debate neared its close, Bolton and Ramaswamy clashed over the role bureaucracy should play in foreign policy and the federal government as a whole.

Bolton, who himself has served in multiple unelected positions, said the bureaucracy can be trusted. “The idea that we’re run by a deep state is deeply paranoid,” he said.

But Ramaswamy said that those making decisions should be directly chosen by the people.

“I think that a root cause of many of our foreign policy failures,” he said, “is that the people we elect to run the government aren’t the ones actually running the government.”

In addition to granting elected officials more power, Ramaswamy said in an ideal world, the U.S. would have no regulations on free international trade. He said tariffs are acceptable only to counter the subsidies and tariffs employed by other countries.

Bolton said he would not use tariffs at all. Instead, he said he would ban the importing of Chinese goods that use “stolen American technology.”

In his closing statement, Bolton turned to the “peace through strength” mentality once popularized by former President Ronald Reagan.

“Who in the world will protect our interests better than us?” Bolton asked.

Ramaswamy concluded by recognizing the generational differences between himself and Bolton. As a millennial, Ramaswamy said he is more inclined to be cynical about the nation’s current foreign policy. He added that the U.S. should not attempt to project strength that it does not actually have.

“That’s not an isolationist position,” Ramaswamy said. “It’s a pro-American position.”